Warp is still Warp

Hey folks,

After some of you reported about differences in Warp Mode performance, we picked up a couple of scooters (A Series 1 450X (Scooter 1) and White 450X(Scooter 2)) to test in lab conditions as well as on-road conditions.

We bucketed the complaints into two:

  1. Warp mode not having the punch/peppiness
  2. Drop in performance after OTA updates

What tests did we do?

To preserve the condition of the two vehicles that were picked up, we ran basic checks around belt tension, wheel freeness, software version, and tyre pressures. We found that in both vehicles, the tyre pressure was around 3-5 psi higher than the recommended specs. There were other minor variations, but they were within spec.

We ran two types of tests - Dyno testing and On-road trials.

Dyno testing involves putting a scooter on a dynamometer, to perform tests in a controlled environment, while observing various parameters of the scooter. Since we run benchmarks on performance across software versions, we had data across different OTA updates to compare.

On-road trials involve expert human test-riders, riding the scooter, trying out specific tests, while using special equipment such as a VBOX - a data logger for automobiles, to measure parameters of the scooter. We took both the scooters along to an airstrip (which we frequently use for our testing), to get a free stretch of road to push the scooters to the limits.

So what did we find?

First, we tested the vehicle in the condition we received it in on a Dyno, with the tyres overinflated, and here’s what we found:

Speed Time taken
0-20 kmph :white_check_mark: as per spec
0-40 kmph :white_check_mark: as per spec
0-60 kmph :white_check_mark: as per spec
Top speed :white_check_mark: as per spec

We decided to take the scooters to a track for on-road trials:

On-road testing involves an experienced rider who tries out different scenarios on the scooter while using equipment to measure parameters on the scooter.

Testing on a dynamometer has its limitations. When your tyre is overinflated, there’s an increase in load on both tyres. This causes what’s called a longitudinal weight transfer, that won’t be caught on a dynamometer, since the load on the front and rear tyres are isolated.

While our rider wasn’t testing with a laptop in hand, the green box and the wires around it is called V-BOX, which accurately measures the timing and some performance parameters of the scooter.

When we tried with overinflated tyres, the rider did feel a reduction in the performance in Warp mode.

Aha! So there is a reduction in performance…

Yes, but when we fixed the tyre pressure levels, the performance matched our benchmark vehicles and Warp was back to its original ride feel!

On a loose surface such as sand or gravel, using Warp mode led to the rear wheel break traction, which wasn’t the case with the higher tyre pressure levels. (Don’t try this at home or otherwise, our testers say 9/10 times, people fall when they try this.)

Where’s the proof?

Some graphs and tables incoming…

This test sounds fun and involves opening the throttle fully from start, and mapping how the motor delivers the power as the speed increases. There’s no significant difference in the power delivery between the three scooters - our benchmark 450X, White 450X and Series 1.

As you can see our beloved Warp Mode is still delivering the peak performance levels as expected. This graph should also illustrate for some of you, how the torque delivery happens as the speed increases.

Here again, we compared the time taken to hit different speeds between the three scooters, and there’s little to no difference in the timings.

In fact, taking this a step further, you can see that there’s little to no variation in the throttle % required to hit different speeds across software versions.

So what can you take away from this?

  • Maintaining the ideal tyre pressure numbers are super important and affect the ‘ride feel’. Your rides might be slightly less grippy, bumpier, etc. These subjective parameters do contribute significantly to how you perceive your ride experience
  • Even something as minor as adjusting your seat height, can impact the feeling of being thrown back, due to changes in longitudinal forces. Numbers are not impacted - you will still beat most petrol scooters and bikes on the road in a traffic light drag race :slight_smile:
  • Air compressors at local mechanic shops, petrol pumps and other cheaper equipment available are likely to not be calibrated correctly, leading to accidental low/high inflation of tyres.
  • To get the best performance in Warp mode,
    • Ensure your 450X is charged up to at least 40%. If you’ve just fast charged, allow the scooter to cool down a bit before you go Wide-Open-Throttle
    • Check your tyre pressure and keep it at the optimum pressure when the tyre is cold, not after riding hard already.

Conclusion

After testing extensively, there’s no change in the performance of Warp mode on the Ather 450X, and neither has the performance varied between different OTA versions. Adjusting some parameters like tyre pressure and belt tension will definitely improve the ride feel of all modes on the Ather 450X.

We did know that nothing has changed in Warp Mode through OTA updates. Since solving your concerns are important to us, we decided to do a deep dive and come back with more details on what was going on.

We do see there’s room for improvement when we show the ropes to new owners, especially on the impact tyre pressure plays on performance as seen here, and range as well. We’ll share a lot more detail around tyre pressure in a blog post coming soon.

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Now we realise how important tpms could be!

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We need to have TPMS asap.

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Good to know. May I suggest that all EC & charging grid should be equiped with compressor and well calibrated high quality tyre pressure gauge… Since we dont go to petrol pump anymore and in your article you mentioned that local shops may not have well calibrated pressure gauge. It will be nice gesture towards the customers as well as it will reduce further such performance complaints and confusions…

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That’s great and all that you’re taking it seriously, but where are the numbers on the time axis and table? Looks like a pathetic excuse like my team does on our presentations when we don’t get the numbers on our simulations in ANSYS right and when they don’t match with experimental results. If you want to sound convincing, please give numbers for ‘time’ too. Who knows if your benchmark scooter really hit 40kmph in 3.3seconds?

Your charts without numbers are premium level bullshit that our teacher likes to say it as.

WhatsApp Image 2021-07-13 at 10.00.19 WhatsApp Image 2021-07-13 at 10.00.19 (1)

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I’m sure you can put this point across nicer, we’re here to listen to you folks and get feedback and learn something new every day but ultimately we’re human at the end of the day. Please be nicer when talking to other people on the forum :slight_smile:

Coming to your point, the intention of this post and the whole exercise was to show that there’s no difference in performance between the benchmark scooters and actual vehicles that were running on the road and that nothing has changed in the OTA updates, which were the original complaints.

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Really liked the post and eagerly waiting for your post on tyre pressure. I am curious how much did tyre over-inflation affect 0-40 times, was it by a second or some negligible difference?

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I don’t even have a 450x yet I want to comment something, was the test performed with underinflated tyres too? something that I have noticed in my 450s whenever the tyres are underinflated they tend to move towards the right even with only 3 psi low as if there is a weight balance gone wrong

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@vinith_karadi, you are absolutely right.

@abhishek.balaji, if you are concerned on user’s opinion (I know it doesn’t matter), why don’t you pick 3 users from Forum who voted against warp mode and let them decide (I meant to say on track while testing) whether 450x is delivering performance as promised?

Rather you people draw on your own a report and wanted Ather users to presume that it was real? (Come on, you people can do much better)!

@abhishek.balaji, have you referred any of your friends to buy Ather (I did - 4 Referral)? They said good things when they purchased vehicle and from past 2 months it’s other way round. I take full responsibility for it because I vouched for Ather

@abhishek.balaji, Whenever we ask for valid proof, you accuse us Ather users being rude!

Rather than accusing people of being rude, why don’t you come up with proper proof (I meant to say involving real Ather users)? I don’t Mind volunteering…neither does @vinith_karadi.

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Yes, you guys are humans with a technical degree at the least and a Master’s degree, and a couple of years of experience.

These are the qualifications that Ather suggests for a Reliability Test lead engineer to join their team. Of course I’d expect to see a proper chart with numbers on the ‘time’ axis. Even I can do the chart for you, if you let me use the dyno for a few days.

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What’s the point of publishing data if it isn’t complete?

As it happens, I have a VBox too, and access to a closed road. If you’d be kind enough to release all the numbers, I can try to verify them independently on my scooter and compare it to your benchmark.

BTW: if a couple of PSI of tire pressure, seating position etc. make such a large difference in ride feel, what about the rider’s weight? Do let us know so we can plan our diet routines around the warp numbers.

You’re subtly encouraging street racing now? Nice!

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My understanding is that 2 of those tested were from Bangalore owners who complained about WARP Mode degradation.

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Were they invited to test ride the benchmark scooter and their own scooters back to back?

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No, their scooters were picked for testing and then returned back. Let’s see what Ather does regarding this in the future.

As far as I know the lease scooter which was given to @prateeksuri sir is performing better than his series 1.They have taken his s1 for testing so he has been given a rental scooter till then.

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When my scooter was picked up for fixes a couple of weeks after delivery, I had the same experience with the loaner 450 that was at least 3 years old (VIN # 35 or thereabouts). Sure, it was a bit battered and the handlebar was misaligned, but the ride quality was leagues ahead of my brand new scooter.

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Am enjoying this thread a lot. :sweat_smile::sweat_smile: So much prominence to the warp mode. I am sure a lot of us paid so much money down after experiencing the warp more or reading about it. Ather really need to get their game up. “Competition is coming…” :joy:

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My S1 is going be loaded on a truck today and will be taken to Bengaluru. I will be writing a big feedback on my experience till date.

Yes the loaner is way much smoother and has a better throttle response. And guess what, it’s so smooth i don’t have that wrist pain at all.

Just for everyone’s knowledge, my S1 is being taken to Hosur factory I believe due to multiple issues including Warp performance drop (our assumption as per Ather). I had long a discussion with @tarun on this topic and he did mention possible reasons can be belt tension, tire pressure etc.

Fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

But in short, Kudos to Ather for making extra efforts to resolve my issues (no other company does this).

More details soon…

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Every self respecting company does, and it’s not a favor; it’s literally their job.

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They should do all that for 1,80,000 :joy: anyway, on a serious note, Ather is doing well on responding to customer’s issues & complaints. Just hang in there guys. I am ready to give them a many more chances. My heart goes to them. :heart:

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Hey guys, sorry late to the thread. The series 1 which was picked up, is mine. @abhishek.balaji asked me if they could lend my scooter for testing, and gladly did so to help out all of us facing the same trouble!

A few observations after the scooter came back from testing - I could notice the warp mode is back. Yes! Initially I thought that its possible, that my mind accepted this only because it wasn’t with me for a week, but a few changes felt immediate after my scooter was returned -

1 - Belt Tension - the “whee” sound reduced drastically. The reason being, the belt tension was tweaked! And it made a difference for sure IMO

2 - Tyre pressure - Now, I fill my tyres weekly with the Mi tyre inflator I had brought.

Front - 30 psi
Back - 32 psi
Simple enough?

Well not so, I realized. The Mi portable charger is off by +/- 3 psi. So when the scooter was handed over to the Ather team… both front and back tyres were at 38 psi, as mentioned by them. This does effectively make your ride super bouncy and provides a smaller patch of rubber contact to the road.

But… but… how can these things AFFECT WARP MODE SO drastically. It still puzzled me!

Eventually, during last week, I tested two things -

1- have I been filling my tyres wrong ?
2- how much psi can affect the warp mode ?

Answer : 1 - have I been filling my tyres wrong ? -

By the Mi portable, YES. I dropped into a shell petrol bunk and filled the tyres, to specs.
Front - 30 psi
Back - 32 psi
Came home, measured the pressure, it was displaying on the portable inflator :
Front : 28 psi
Back : 29 psi

This proved to me, not to entirely depend on the Mi tyre inflator. Instead, drop in occasionally to a shell petrol bunk to check air pressure. Sigh!

2 - how much psi can affect the warp mode ?

To test this, @abhishek.balaji and @chaitanya.hegde, suggested me to drop the tyre pressure, test the warp mode, and again inflate and test the difference. So I did that on the new airport road and it does make a slight difference. The scooter had a better contact patch on the road, with slightly reduced pressure. And the warp mode performed well.

Again re-inflated the tyres, and tried. I could reproduce very similar results, BUT the ride was bouncy and the contact patch was smaller with the road.

Now a few questions which I put across to @abhishek.balaji and @chaitanya.hegde , what happens in a ferrari, when it experiences a drop in tyre pressure, or how do they fill their tyres accurately? Does that affect performance so drastically?
Maybe the hint lies there. And yes it did. TPMS. All sportscar come equipped with active TPMS on the dashboard in order to ensure optimum performance, as expected.

Now the wait for TPMS begins, to put all my doubts in rest.

To sum it up, IMO, I rode my scooter on warp and sports mode since last week to feel the difference, and it is noticeable. I place my bets on the belt tension being the culprit in my case, which was at 48 hz instead of 55 hz (correct me if I’m wrong @abhishek.balaji ).

Tyre pressure, well extremely debatable and there is really no end to it I feel. I have started maintaining 28 psi and 29 psi by including margin of error from the Mi tyre inflator.

Apologies for a lengthy post, just putting my observations, for the record!

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