Motor on the Ather 450X

Here’s a very biased manipulated video to make it look like athers regen is really strong :stuck_out_tongue:

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It’s from Mahle.

Nope, 450s had Mahle they changed it in 450x, someone who has opened their 450x scooter might share the enlightenment in here :innocent:

Be enlightened

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Would you like to opine some more, sir?

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For us not so technically sound people here, What are we looking at? It’s a BLDC motor eh?? I think it is. Because the initial 450X were modified 450’s with the same motor. And Tarun also said once that because of the new battery they are able to run the same motor harder. Wasn’t sure. Explains the lack of regen.

What am I looking at PWM signal? square wave signal? motor running at 50v? 10x attenuation? BLDC and PMSM are almost the same because they have derived from the same concept and killing the back emf which was a huge downfall for BLDC

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When it comes to electric motors and the like, you’re probably better off than I am, so I figured you’d recognise what I posted.

I took the panels off to check the motors and controllers on both scooters and this is what I found:

450

450X

Connections running to both motors looked pretty much the same, and so did the controllers. So I did some Google-fu to figure out how to differentiate between a BLDC and PMS motor, and landed here:

Basically, a BLDC controller’s output would be square / trapezoidal whereas a truw PMS output would be sinusoidal.

The output here is a square wave. Definitely not sinusoidal no matter how hard I squint. So unless I got this hopelessly wrong, the motor on the X is the same as that on the 450, and not a true PMS as mentioned in the post that you quoted (although according to the article I linked to, it could be called a PMS motor).

Here’s a link to the complete video. Excuse the lack of production value; I was in a rush.

I don’t understand why all these lies are being published in Ather’s literature.

No wonder the motor is still as noisy, and as I mentioned in my thread previously, the motor is bolted rigidly to the chassis, therefore pretty much guaranteeing that NVH will always be an issue here because the chassis will serve to amplify vibrations being created in the motor.

Just for context, when I directly mounted a small electrical vacuum pump inside the front right corner of the bumper, bolted to the car’s frame, I could hear it inside the cabin coming through the AC vents like the noise was being piped over a speaker. This was over the noise of a 300hp engine. I then proceeded to redo the pump mounting using rubber isolators and the same thing installed in the same location is almost completely silent now.

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I’m no expert in scoping the signal, but the scoping needs done from a scope, these computer scopes are the not a proper standard , BLDC has dc current while probing did you see an AC signal? if yes then it’s a PMSM motor no doubt, In one of your photos you can clearly see U, V , W marking on 3 phase motor power wires, the orange one, but the Hertz generated by the power should have been sinusoidal perhaps someone from Ather might explain this

Lol. Are you trying to say that all DSOs are junk?

The output was measured between U and ground. It’s a constant voltage, constant duty cycle, variable frequency signal. This is a BLDC motor.

yup Handheld ones are garbage what doubt you have?

Which one of the two is it?

You also seemed to have no doubt that the motor was a Siemens.

I hate trollers but since you think everything you know just because you dismantled the ather both versions and probed the only one phase and worked on your “Garbage” handheld probe and now want to tell people that Ather has committed Corporate fraud by installing a BLDC motor on 450x when it is well advertised as PMSM motor because you probed something? and have the internet to back you up? yes, I didn’t know that they have changed the branding because I don’t have a 450x to open it up.

At this point, it looks like I do know more than you about this specific topic. Looks like you’re the one trolling by mouthing off about DSOs being garbage. But don’t worry, I adore trolls. They’re fun.

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Moderator note: Guys, Please keep the discussions respectful. Do not resort to name calling!

Folks, let’s have a productive discussion, please. Feel free to challenge ideas and not people. You’re always welcome to criticize, question and, challenge Ather, but let’s remember that we’re all here to have productive discussions and possibly learn something new.

It’s hard to judge a person’s tone and intent when posting on online channels, let’s give the benefit of the doubt to the other person.

I’ve been posting facts. I make no bones about the fact that I’m not an expert on motors, and cite the sources my conclusions are based on.

If someone has information that proves my conclusions wrong, please share by all means. I’ll be happy to learn. Silly comments by armchair critics will be met with equally silly responses.

One doesn’t need a lab grade oscilloscope to differentiate between a square and sine wave. It’s also not easy to scope a signal while one person is taking a video, a second one is trying to maintain terminal contact with the probes, and a third person is burning rubber and trying to keep the scooter from running away; a center stand would have REALLY helped here.

Then let’s do this. Since you call trolling on someone who’s gotten their hands dirty on their own scooty and put actual efforts into getting legitimate results in to learn more and share with the community, surely you must be replying with the enthusiasm to contribute to this thread, right?

Then let’s meet up at the workshop at my college(PESIT, Banashankari) with your scooty. We have all the lab grade oscilloscopes you need. If that doesn’t suffice, I have friends at RV who are more than willing to lend their state of the art equipment in the interest of legitimate results ofc.

I’ve been lurking on this thread, and as someone who is keen on learning, since none of your replies in this thread seem to have genuine sources or literature and genuine efforts at contribution, @abhishek.balaji, such half baked retorts without genuine efforts are quite insulting you know? If this trend of discussion is being upheld by the moderators, even I, who wanted to rip apart my scooty and get to some conclusions about the motor and share, have no interest, in view of commenters who have no intentions of contribution.

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Could you just clear it out? The 450 came with a BLDC motor but the 450X has a PMSM or a BLDC motor??

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To clarify a few things here:

The motor on the 450X is very similar to the 450, the only changes on it are the changes needed to accommodate the higher power delivery and better thermal management for the Warp mode. We have communicated this in a few forums, but putting it out here again: the battery and BMS have been completely rebuilt for the 450X, but motor has minor modifications only.

Both 450 and 450X have PMSM. and the core tech did not change between versions. However, while initially communicating specs for the 450 we called the motor a BLDC motor, and we corrected it to say PMSM for the 450X, which was an oversight on our part. PMSMs, with their sinusoidal waveforms offer smoother torque delivery and more efficient control of the motor and are better for our applications.

Regarding the square waveform you are indeed seeing the raw PWM signal at very high resolution, to view the sinusoidal waveform, you will need to do a lot of post-processing.

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